Realization

[hugme]

So lets say you were buying a car and I will selling one. I handed you a book telling you all about the car. would you:

A. read the book, take the car on a test drive, check out the wheels, ask other people what they thought of it, look up reports for that type of car and find out more about it

OR

B not even read the book or look at the car, hand me your wallet and say take what you need.


so 99% of Christians have not read the entire bible and don't know the history of the bible or christanity.

Before you model your life after something, wouldn't you want to know a little bit about it?!?

I am getting sick of stupid people.

If you have not read the ENTIRE bible cover to cover at least once, know what it is, when it was written, it's past and the past of Christanity, you are NOT a christian and you only say you are because it's the popular thing to do.

Comments

well...

[mellie-dawn.livejournal.com]

On the one hand, I believe in making informed decisions such as you were describing (getting facts, making sure to research something before modeling your life after it etc).

However, on the other hand, I know personally that if you're looking for descrepensies, you will find them, or what appear to be descrepensies. Your research should be two-fold, trying to prove it to yourself, and trying to disprove it to yourself and see which one feels right to you. It's all about personal faith. I believe Christianity is between you and God, and what you believe is no one's business but yours and God's. In the end it's all sorted out anyways.

If someone's shoving their non-researched Christianity down your throat and they are ill-prepared (research etc-wise) to debate with you, that's a mistake on their part, because most likely you were asking questions they couldn't answer... so that could be where this viewpoint/post comes from.

I can see how someone trying to convert/sway/preach to you blindly would seem sheepish, or going along with what was popular. I'd be curious to know why you realized this. If I were just taking your post at face value though, I'd say "why don't you let me believe what I want to believe... It's not about whether or not *you* think I'm not in it for the real thing, It's about me, I KNOW I'm in it for the real thing, no matter how prepared I am. It's also about God, *He* knows my heart and mind and knows how to help me grow in my faith as long as I'm willing. Faith is believing in things unseen, not all research and logic apply to spiritual fulfillment. John 14:6-'I am the Way the Truth and the Life, No One comes to the Father except by Me' Sometimes you just know, and that's enough for me to grow on in my faith. I don't have all the answers, but that doesn't mean I'm not a Christian."

I'm really sorry someone offended you enough to cause a realization about a huge group of people...
Have a Blessed Day!
Melanie

Re: well...

[hugs.livejournal.com]

"I believe Christianity is between you and God, and what you believe is no one's business but yours and God's"

No, christianity is a religion based on a book called the bible.

You call yourself a christian however you think christianity is a "make it up as you go along" religion. it's not, Christinaty is not a religion where you just do what you feel, it's based on documentation, if you haven't read the documentation then you don't even know what your religion is about.

Being a computer systems administrator we have a saying we use all the time, RTFM, it stands for read the fucking manual. I don't type commands because it's what I feel like typing I know what to type because I RTFM.

"If someone's shoving their non-researched Christianity down your throat"

This is a constant, everytime I got out of my house there is another person saing god this and jesus that when they have NO FUCKING CLUE

"I'd be curious to know why you realized this"

(simmily taken from George Carlin)

My brain works like a farris wheel piled high with lots and lots of weird junk. it spins really fast and I stand over to the side. constantly I reach out, pick something up off the wheel look at it and put it back.

This is something I thought of while driving one day.

"It's not about whether or not *you* think I'm not in it for the real thing, It's about me, I KNOW I'm in it for the real thing, no matter how prepared I am."

you don't quite get it do you. it doesn't matter what you claim, words are cheap. lets look at facts:

a 'christian' is someone who lives their life according to the teachings found in the book known as the bible.

if a person has not read the bible then they don't know what the teachings are...therefore the person could not possibly be a christian.

just admitting that you are claiming to be a christian basised on the views of what you have heard about christianity shows that you are in it just because it's the popular thing to do. Maybe your parents were doing it, maybe your friends. but it's not because YOU decided to, because if it was because YOU had decided to then either you made an informed decision based directly on the text that your read or, you are the type of person who just hands somone their wallet when they want to buy a car and says 'take care of it' (aka, your stupid)

Re: well...

[mellie-dawn.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to come across as someone who didn't rtfm, because I have read a lot of it. Have I read the entire Bible cover to cover? not yet. Do I want to/intend to? Yes.

"No, christianity is a religion based on a book called the bible."

-I was just saying that committing your life to Christianity involves a lot more than the manual. It involves a belief system that is based on the Bible, but doesn't stop there. Faith+Knowledge=religion (only my opinion). If you know all about something, but it doesn't mean any more to you than when you knew nothing, you're not committed.

I was obviously unclear in my post, so I don't know if I'm doing any better of a job explaining myself, but I guess what I was trying to say is that you don't have to have all the answers to be a Christian. In essence, converting/getting saved/committing your life to Christ is just the beginning. That's your expression/desire to learn all the answers, not the result of you *Already* knowing the answers.

There are Bible scholars who don't understand every word of the Bible, and you're saying that to even claim Christianity, one should?

I'm not stupid, by the way. I disagree with your post as you disagree with my comment, but notice I didn't call you names.

Re: well...

[techromaster.livejournal.com]

I shouldnt say anything, but I was compelled to, much in the same way you were compelled to christ.

maybe it is all about the doctrine principles in the book, maybe its all about personal understanding of your relationship with god.

whichever it is, it simply comes down to you and your decisions contained therein. the real kicker is when you question your question, get an answer, and decide if the answer is agreeable with you, then look at why its agreeable.

for example, some sects of religion condone murder, imply that you should beat your kids, offer no solice to the ones in need, state that pain is just another virtue... the list goes on and on.

I say, dare i charge, that no one has the right idea, no one ever will, and that no one should ever.

after all, it is faith. and by definition, its un attainable. how can one say that "being well versed" in scripture, or that your "personal relationship with god" offers what you need. Maybe it makes you feel better, Maybe it gives you the excuse to send thousands of soldiers to a battlefield to protect your kingly assets, hell, maybe it makes flying planes into buildings quite justified.

just live your life the way it makes sense using the best educated guesses you can. Besides, if you get to the gates, talk to god, and he says "no, downstairs you go" could you really argue?

just a thought...

Re: well...

[mellie-dawn.livejournal.com]

"whichever it is, it simply comes down to you and your decisions contained therein. the real kicker is when you question your question, get an answer, and decide if the answer is agreeable with you, then look at why its agreeable."

I agree. I think that committing your life to Christ gives you the faith to believe in God's plan for your life. It gives you the hunger to know His Word and faith supports you when it's all you can do not shout out loud when you don't understand what's going on. I think faith is the reason Christians agree to just pray until something happens, instead of needing answers right then right there.

"I say, dare i charge, that no one has the right idea, no one ever will, and that no one should ever."

well, obviously I disagree, I believe that jesus is the only way to Heaven and everlasting life. However, I fully know (even though I don't quite understand) that there are people who disagree and I pray for them.

"just live your life the way it makes sense using the best educated guesses you can. "

Well, my argument is opposite, that educated guesses aren't enough... prayerful, faithful educated guesses are better. Hugs was saying that in order to truly say you're a Christian you must know all the history and have read the Bible cover to cover and follow it to the letter. well, in the new testament, Jesus refutes some of the Old testament laws. I follow Jesus and the Bible together, with faith. and I DO NOT have all the answers... not by a long shot, but I know that I don't have to. Having all the knowledge in the world of the Bible and history of Christianity is not what's being a Christian is all about. It's about a daily relationship with Christ and applying His will for your life.

This is becoming quite a lively little post Hugs !

Re: well...

[melonaise.livejournal.com]

There are two different definitions of what makes a Christian: someone who believes in Jesus as Savior, or someone who follows the religion based on the teachings of Jesus. In other words, it's entirely possible for someone to believe in Christ but never read the Bible, and alternately, for someone to follow all the "laws" of Christianity without actually believing the underlying metaphysical implications. To use Hugme's analogy-- I could rtfm and mimic the commands and get something done, but if I don't have a deeper understanding of the system as a whole I can seriously screw things up. Just as someone following the Bible without an insight of the core spirit of Christianity can be a real ass. ;)

In away, Jesus is the core of Christianity, and the Bible was built on top of that. You can stay on the surface and go by the letter of the Bible, or you can delve deeper into spirituality. Although many call the Bible the Word of God, a lot of people see it as a work of man and thus an imperfect interpretation of God's Will.

Someone who has read very little of the Bible but uses it as support for their faith (It's true because the Bible says so) are irritating. People who use their personal experiences or feelings as support for their faith make more sense to me. How could a hodge-podge of outdated and often badly translated documents like the Bible be a path to truth? It must always be taken with a grain of salt-- whether that be logic or faith.

Re: well...

[mellie-dawn.livejournal.com]

"In away, Jesus is the core of Christianity, and the Bible was built on top of that. You can stay on the surface and go by the letter of the Bible, or you can delve deeper into spirituality. Although many call the Bible the Word of God, a lot of people see it as a work of man and thus an imperfect interpretation of God's Will. "

that's why delving deeper is so important - to know God's Word and how it applies to your life is not always easy, and that personal relationship with Christ does wonders for understanding. Without it all you have is a "history book" as I have heard it referred to... and if it means nothing to you, sadly, that's all it is.

To base your life on something you're not passionately/faithfully on fire about (if only most of the time - there are times I'm more confused than faithful/prayerful) seems sad and passive to me. I base my life on Christianity because God means everything to me and I, even as a sinner, am one of His children, covered and protected by His love, forever! It's so much more than the manual...

Re: well...

[rampntnegatvity.livejournal.com]

- "for example, some sects of religion condone murder"

What sect condones murder... and calls it murder... as a Christian defines murder...

??

Re: well...

[rampntnegatvity.livejournal.com]

You are trully faithful.

What do you consider a test of faith?
This discussion will not count.

Re: well...

[rampntnegatvity.livejournal.com]

- "based on the Bible"?

No... based on the teachings of Christ. RTFM.

- "Faith+Knowledge=religion"

No. Faith+Philosophy=Religion. At least as how it would be popularly defined.

7:40p - A rhetorical statement against ostensible mockerys of understanding... (http://www.livejournal.com/~rampntnegatvity/day/2002/09/08)

Re: well...

[mellie-dawn.livejournal.com]

uhmmm, I have heard of far tougher tests than I've personally been through. My grandmother travels the world teaching prayer seminars and has been to countries where saying the word "Jesus" gets you killed. My sister has been through a near fatal car crash. Both of them have questioned why the hell any God would put them thorugh that and I have sympathetically questioned too, but not at the same level they did. They've coped and prayed and grown in their faith through these trials, as God will never give you anything you can't handle...

I am not always faithful to a fault or as I usually say it "at the top of my game" but I try, and I pray, and I know God is there for me even when I think I don't need him.

Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven...

Re: well...

[mellie-dawn.livejournal.com]

''It involves a belief system that is based on the Bible, but doesn't stop there. Faith+Knowledge=religion (only my opinion). "

I never said properly defined - it was an opinion...

Re: well...

[rampntnegatvity.livejournal.com]

Jews were never forgiven.
Ever heard the white lie?

Re: well...

[rampntnegatvity.livejournal.com]

The Old Testament was not open for unencipherment. Or death was a result. A god that ruled through a single hand and word now rules through a monotony of beleif and opinion?

Re: well...

[mellie-dawn.livejournal.com]

huh? I have no idead where your comment came from - but then again it is monday... oh well

have a good day

Re: well...

[mellie-dawn.livejournal.com]

lol, I never said it was my opinion of the way He rules... However, I was unclear. basically, faith+knowledge=religion is a very watered down way of trying to explain how I view religion... sorry I wasn't more clear. my mantra has always been - I don't have all the answers, and this isn't an answer, but a personal explanation.

Re: well...

[hugs.livejournal.com]

"In away, Jesus is the core of Christianity, and the Bible was built on top of that..."

How do you know Jesus exists? what he was? what he did? anything at all about him

because of a 1500 year old book, the new testiment... (actually most of it has only been a book for 1200 years). So you get all of your information about jesus from this book? no, you get all of your information from somone who heard about it from somone who heard about it from somone who read a few lines of the bible. most of the MINISTERS I know haven't even read the whole thing... if they claim to have I ask them questions like:

so how did it make you feel when god lost the wrestling match to a mortal?

or why is god such a hipicrate, he says "you shouldn't punish somone for their fathers sins" then he kills hundreds of thousands for the sins of their fathers not more then a year later. (there are SEVERAL places where you can find this happens)

none of them even knew that stuff was in there, it's very sad

"that's why delving deeper is so important"

how can you delve deeper if you don't even know what your delving into?

Everything that most christians know about jesus they have either heard third or fourth hand or they have read a few sentances out of millions. sitting down and reading the bible is one of the reasons I am NOT a christian... the god is mean, cruel, not all that powerful and full of lies... there are HUNDREDS of pieces of scripture to back that up.

Re: well...

[melonaise.livejournal.com]

Did you read the part where I said some people view the Bible as a work of man, and therefore not the be-all, end-all of Christianity? Most Christians who have read the bible and see all the contradictions believe that it is not the pure word of God. If it's divinely inspired at all, it was written down so long after the inspiration and translated so many times since then, it's barely a coherent work. But that doesn't mean there wasn't divine inspiration.

If the New Testament wasn't built around the core of the belief that Jesus existed (and was some sort of divine figure), then what was the point of it? I thought it was supposed to center around his life, the people he influenced, the events of his time, his teachings in general... based on Jesus in general. Many people feel that while a lot of the details have become distorted in the retelling, the basic idea of God creating a mortal son is still true.

There are a lot of secular works that are nearly as jumbled as the bible (like trying to collect the letters of Pythagoras) but we don't throw away the whole just because part of it doesn't make sense. It's possible to have the gist of an idea be correct, while the interpretations are way off or wrong in the details (like all the interpretations of quantum theory-- they can't ALL be correct).

Delving deeper into spirituality, not the bible. Some people are religious because they FEEL something is right, they don't need it proven to them or any kind of historical backing from the bible. They view the Bible as a work of man filled with many contradictions, but that was inspired by something they BELIEVE is true. And while some of the metaphors in the bible are seriously screwed up, some actually make sense and can be applied to modern life.

And for those who do believe the bible is true in its entirity-- well, if they can believe that man was created first, I guess they can believe anything. ;)

Re: well...

[rampntnegatvity.livejournal.com]

And you'll never read to find it will you...

Re: well...

[rampntnegatvity.livejournal.com]

- "this isn't an answer, but a personal explanation"

'Evolution' of human thought.

7:40 pm - A rhetorical statement against ostensible mockerys of understanding... (http://www.livejournal.com/~rampntnegatvity/day/2002/09/08)

Re: well...

[rampntnegatvity.livejournal.com]

Like hugs... I have asked so called "holy men" questions concerning the duplicity of our, "Lord and savior, Jesus Christ"'s book.

I have never received such an educated answer as the one you have given.
'Evolution' of human thought....

- "They view the Bible as a work of man filled with many contradictions, but that was inspired by something they BELIEVE is true. And while some of the metaphors in the bible are seriously screwed up, some actually make sense and can be applied to modern life."

The adaptation of spiritualism to paradigm.


7:40p - A rhetorical statement against ostensible mockerys of understanding... (http://www.livejournal.com/~rampntnegatvity/day/2002/09/08)

Re: well...

[mellie-dawn.livejournal.com]

I pursue answers to questions I have, not questions others try to get me to ask.

Re: well...

[mellie-dawn.livejournal.com]

I don't appreciate you telling me where I got information about Jesus and His nature. Jesus is in the New testament, yes, but He's also in my life. I see it everywhere I look, in the people I meet, in the choices I make and in the trials I face. What I don't see is how you can think you'd ever see good if you're looking for the bad. You reap what you sew. Am I only a Christian because I'm an optimist? No, I'm a Christian because I found the truth and follow Christ.

So, yes, I did hear of Christianity through people, family, friends... I grew up in the church. However, did I go to them when I had questions? Did I ask them why I should follow Christ? No, I researched them in the Bible, I still attend Bible studies, and pray a lot... I still have questions, but one of them is NOT, "Am I a Christian?"

I identify more with Melon's "feeling believing" than your "I'm not a Christian unless I understand every word of the Bible and can answer every question posited to me" My mantra has always been "I don't have all the answers". However, I use the Bible as a tool to understand God's word and will for my life, but my entire faith is based on my personal relationship with God, not the book.

Re: well...

[rampntnegatvity.livejournal.com]

That's the spirit. Curiosity has one path.

The Devil once tried to get me to cross examine the Pope. I said to him, "Not on your pretty pink flesh, no sir! I don't knows him, but everyone says that Pope is good!"

Re: well...

[mellie-dawn.livejournal.com]

correction: my curiosity has one path... its own. I don't understand your question, but from your attitude, I really don't feel like trying to understand right now. No one's perfect and I'm just not really excited about talking with someone so negative.

Re: well...

[rampntnegatvity.livejournal.com]

*chuckle*

I'm not negative. I see half a glass of water.

I thought it was a good christian who saw through negativity to bring the light of god to poor wretched souls.

29 "You, Son of God!", they shouted, "what have you to do with us. Are you come to torment us before the time?"
30 Now there was, at some distance from them, a
31 herd of many swine feeding; and the demons began entreating him.
"If you are to drive us out", they said, "send us into that herd of swine!"
32 He answered, "Go!"
So they came out of the men, and went into the swine, and behold! the entire herd rushed headlong down the cliff into the sea, and perished in the water.


- "I don't understand your question"

What question was I asking? I thought I was trying to get you to ask questions.

Re: well...

[rampntnegatvity.livejournal.com]

Allow me...

"God works in mysterious ways, my son"

Re: well...

[mellie-dawn.livejournal.com]

It would be wonderful to see through negativity all the time, but it is human to not be wonderful and perfect. It breaks my heart to know that people are out there unwilling to grasp or believe the wonderful perfect love of God that has saved them from themselves if they'd only believe. Therefore, I'm praying for you daily, but I just can't do everything, so this little debate is over. If you, "shameless self-admiring bastard" want to talk to yourself, go ahead, my posting is done for now. I have other things to do.